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Conrad John Schuck isan actor, primarily in stage, movies and television. He is best known for hisroles as police commissioner Rock Hudson's mildly slow-witted assistant, Sgt.Charles Enright in the 1970s crime drama McMillan & Wife, and as Lee Meriwether'shusband, Herman Munster in the 1980s sitcom, The Munsters Today. Schuck is alsoknown for his work on Star Trek movies and television series, often playing aKlingon character, as well as his recurring roles as Draal on Babylon 5 and asChief of Detectives Muldrew of the New York City Police Department in the Law and Order programs, especially Law and Order: Special Victims Unit.In the summer of1992, John was also Horace Vandergelder in a short three city (Atlanta, St.Louis, Kansas City) tour as Horace Vandergelder opposite Madeline Kahn’s DollyLevi in Hello, Dolly! |
| Madeline Kahn |
John had previouslyworked at Theater of the Stars in Atlanta where the tour was originating. Theproducers simply called John and asked him to play Horace. Lee Roy Reams, whowas directing, gave John carte blanche. He didn’t have to read for the part.John arrived and they rehearsed at a local regional theater in Atlanta. Theyrehearsed on a stage. The day John met Madeline, it was a very hot day. He didn’tquite know what to expect. Of course, he knew her movie persona. He did notknow what to expect as far as her being a real person. He had also heard stories about her temperamentduring On the Twentieth Century,about her being difficult and all that. She showed up, looking beautiful,wearing a white sports shirt, khaki pants, cute sneakers, demure and ready towork. She couldn’t have been nicer. Theystarted right away working on the dinner scene. That was the first thing theystaged. The reason being that it is by far the most complicated timing wise. Hewanted to get them working off of each other right away. They didn’t get toofar with it that day because every time Lee Roy suggested something about whatto do, with the food or whatever, she said, and this became her mantra during rehearsals,“Is this what Carol would do?”  |
| Courtesy: James Darrah |
If the answer was yes, she didn’t want anythingto do with it, she wanted to create an entirely original performance which isunderstandable. However, they were short on time. It was a two week rehearsalperiod. Somehow, they got through it. The tech period was, as it usually is, arough period. The production was great. The costumes were wonderful. It wasobvious that there was a lot of money on that stage. They opened and got prettynegative reviews. The reason for that was that Madeline was doing this not particularlyfunny, because she didn’t want to do what Channing had done, little televisionperformance. It wasn’t a theatrical performance at all. It was a very smallperformance with dainty gestures with not that much vocal projection. Thescenes worked better than the songs for her. The second act just laid flat. Johnis sure that she was disappointed.  |
| Courtesy: James Darrah |
They didn’t talk about it. After the Atlantarun, they would continue on to the St. Louis’ MUNY, North America’s largestoutdoor theater, and then on to Kansas City’s Starlight Theater. In themeantime, they had dinner a couple of times. She was a very delightfulcompanion, fun to talk to. She was more interested in the world than showbusiness. They were sitting on the plane flying to St. Louis. John asked her ifshe had ever played the MUNY before. Shesaid, “Oh, no. I don’t know anything about it.” John told her it was a magicalplace. She asked in what way. He told her that the theater would inform her onhow to play the show. Because of its enormity, it’s a strange stage at first. When they got there,a rehearsal had been called. Their bags went off to the hotel and they were offto the MUNY. They got out of the van and John walked her up the ramp to thestage.  |
| St. Louis MUNY stage |
Her mouth fell open. It was like the Hollywood Bowl! That very night,she is delivering a performance that is huge in scope vocally. She isgesticulating like crazy. She is performing Ah,Sweet Mystery of Life obbligatos during the title number. It was amazing tosee that transformation. She never had that in Atlanta. By this point, she wason the phone all the time with Lee Roy, “What did Carol do here? What did Caroldo there?” Lee Roy did not go on to theMUNY. Tony Parise staged the MUNY production. She was suddenly hungry to findout what everybody else’s take was on what she was doing.Madeline’s “television”performance in Atlanta did not affect John’s approach to Horace. In the schemeof things, they don’t have that much to do together. They essentially have thebig scene together in the hat shop. Dolly comes in late to that scene. Most ofhis scenes are between Cornelius and Barnaby. Then, he has the big scene withErnestina. It really isn’t until the end that Dolly and Horace have their bigscenes together. Those were short and John was able to adjust to her up to thatwonderful moment where they dance together at the end. He essentially wentahead and did his own performance. As a child, John remembered that wonderfulactor, Paul Ford. He played Horace in the film adaptation of The Matchmaker. John kind of took him ashis model. John never saw David Burns’ definitive performance but he did seeMax Showalter. He had also met Max and Peter Walker a couple of times inConnecticut. It wasn’t John’s intention at all but he was doing Jim Backus’Mister Magoo. He admits that he had this puffy quality about him. He wasn’timitating anybody, he thought. The audiences loved it and Madeline could nothave been more wonderful to work with.If he had theopportunity to play Horace again, John would choose to make him gruffer. Horace is not really a likable man. He isunpleasant. John kind of avoided going too far in that direction. He woulddefinitely like to change that if the opportunity arises again. He thinks thatgives Dolly more to play opposite. Audiences wonder what it that she sees inhim. When he comes out of jail at the end, a wiser and humbler man is a betterarc.  |
| Tony Parise rehearsing Madeline and John on stage at the MUNY (Courtesy Tony Parise) |
Before going to theMUNY, they rehearsed two weeks and played two weeks in Atlanta. There is no doubtabout the fact that Madeline was a smart actress. She knew she had to dosomething to get to the level that she got to at the MUNY. She was brilliant. She had everything to be brilliant. She had a distinctive voice. She had anunusual look. She also had great adaptability. John understood what her “problem”was. Gower “created” this character that is so indelible with Channing’s rhythms.John is in love withthe show. One of his regrets is that he has not been hired to do it again. There’sstill time! He loves it. It is a very well constructed show. Madeline wascompletely personable off stage. She was very much in love with her boyfriendat the time. John only met him once. John spoke with Madeline two weeks beforeshe passed. John didn’t know that she was sick. He doesn’t feel that many did.When he heard that she had died, it came as a big shock to him. Madeline’srelationship at the time was very strong and important to her. Also on thatplane ride to St. Louis, Madeline told John of a new Wendy Wasserstein play shehad just been offered. She said she didn’t know whether or not she wanted to doit.  |
1993 Tony Award winners, left to right: Ron Liebman (Angles in America), Madeleine Kahn (The Sisters Rosensweig), Chita Rivera (Kiss of the Spider Woman), and Brent Carver (Kiss of the Spider Woman).
Credit: Anita and Steve Shevett http://www.tonyawards.com |
Of course she did do it, The SistersRosensweig, AND she won a Tony for it. Her career continued to flourishincluding a stint on Cosby.  |
| Channing and James Darrah (Courtesy James Darrah) |
In terms of stock,John would definitely list Dollyamong HIS top five. It was a great production. James Darrah, as Cornelius, was fabulous.John has only seen him a few times since then. He had a small part in aBroadway show that John went to see. James also came once to see something Johnwas doing. This business is so hard. This is someone John thought was going tohave a major career. He is a working actor. John thought he was special and sohonest on stage. He was so believable. James also played Ambrose Kember and understudied Michael DeVries in the 1994 tour and Broadway revival with Channing. One of the things that John did not likeabout the original production was Charles Nelson Reilly. John feels that hespoofed the character and the “Isn’t the world full of wonderful people” speechwith his little “aha aha” sides detracted from it. John knew Charles quitewell. They discussed it one night over dinner at Angus McIndoe (same placewhere John and I met for this interview!). Charles told John that he was bored.John said, “Yes, but you destroyed that moment.” By the time of their conversation, Charleshad become a respected director. John asked Charles what he would do to anactor behaving the way he was behaving towards the end of his run in Dolly.  |
| Charles Nelson Reilly |
Charles said he would have hadhim fired! He was a very honest man. In John’s productionof Dolly, Colleen Fitzpatrick, Irene,was gorgeous and sang like an angel. Frank Parr was Barnaby. The actress whoplayed Ernestina was this wonderful actress out of Houston. She was great. Thisproduction had all of the ingredients of a first class road show.John’s ability as anactor is a strength to share with the audience that they are going to have agood time. He ensures that they are going to enjoy themselves even if it is adrama. John feels that hegrew quite a bit in the role of Horace as the tour progressed. He is a greatbeliever in process. He is true to his director during rehearsals. There isalso a framework. Within that framework is an infinite variety of opportunities.That is the part of acting that he loves.  |
| "Ernestina", Tony Parise, Madeline, Colleen Fitzpatrick (Courtesy Tony Parise) |
Tony Parise sharedin my interview with him that the first performance in Atlanta, literallymoments before opening the house, Madeline almost fell off the passarellebecause it was not properly secured. She was not going on that night unless shehad total assurance that she was not at risk. Tony performed the entire Dollynumber for Madeline to put her mind at ease. John was stage left as all of thiswas unfolding and he vividly remembers that night. John said the passarelle wasnot that wide to begin with and it was rickety. It was terrible and dangerous.He thought she showed great courage. A week and a half later, when she was atthe MUNY, no wonder she was singing Ah,Sweet Mystery of Life!  |
| Madaline and Tony Parise (Courtesy: Tony Parise) |
A lot of promisescame as a result of this tour! There is a lot of enthusiasm for your new “family”.Everyone hopes to work together again. The reality is that it doesn’t alwayshappen. Playing Horace in1992, John came to the realization that if he was playing an older man, he nolonger had to “act” that. Audiences lovedseeing John and Madeline together, especially in the later two cities of thetour as Madeline hit her stride. The show did well financially. The Kansas Cityleg of the tour did the best. MUNY was going through a transitional period atthat time in terms of their managers. Their audience had dwindled somewhat.Within the scope of what was there, it was extremely well received. They weredefinitely “boffo” in Kansas City. Madeline was a huge draw in Atlanta.  |
| Out with Madeline (Courtesy: Tony Parise) |
Criticsaside, the audiences had a wonderful time. They were very good.John did not thinkit was a great production in Atlanta. He thought it had a long way to go;certainly, it was professional. Madeline knew her lines and her timing waspretty good but not perfect. It took her being on the stage with the enormityof the MUNY for her to “get it.” That opening night, John KNEW this was goingto be a great Dolly. It felt like a new production. In fact, the entire companyrose to the occasion. John remembers Madeline’s first entrance on the horsecart in Atlanta. There was almost no applause. It was difficult to see her. Shewas this diminutive person who essentially retreated. That didn’t happen in St.Louis. It didn’t happen in Kansas City either. When she came out in the twolater cities, she was there. The energy was there. At the MUNY, everything waskicked up a notch including real horses! There was a lot going on. Whathappened to her took place in performance. It’s akin to that rehearsal periodwhen you are going through your paces. Then one day, “important” people aresitting at the table, and you just go for it and its there. You never retreat.That’s what happened to her. John saw Channing inher last tour of Dolly. He feels that it never should have happened. He felt,when he saw it, that she was very stiff. He saw it on Broadway at theLunt-Fontaine Theater. It was a very excellent company. They embellish theoriginal stairway for that (Read my interview with Lee Roy Reams). As Lee Royalso said, in our minds we expect something bigger. It may be because of themovie. People are expecting somethingbigger. At the MUNY, it IS Huge! To Channing’scredit, she never once looked down as she made her way down those famed stairs.She came down by herself with no assistance. Lee Roy who directedboth productions stuck pretty much to the show as people know it. He wasextraordinarily patient with both actresses. In his own quite logical way, hehad a great knack for explaining things. He wanted the show done a certain way.They both acquiesced to that. Lee Roy has a great love for the theater and peopleand it shows. He brings all of that to the table and he is extraordinarilyknowledgeable. He is probably a better director than he is actor. He iscertainly a wonderful singer and dancer. John enjoyed working with Lee Roy andhe understood what John’s process was. Lee Roy allowed all of that to happenand then he made his decisions and put it all together.  |
| Carol Channing and Gower Champion |
John has seen a fewDollys that were bland. He has also seen a few Dollys that are too young. Hesaw Martha Raye do it once. He felt that she was the other extreme. It was wayover the top. It was way too big and broad and had become a cartoon rather thana real person. The thing that is so special about Dolly and Michael Stewart andJerry Herman really caught this from TheMatchmaker is the strength is in the heart of these characters. They allhave this desperate need to have love. When you destroy that, you literallytake the heart out of it. He felt that Martha Raye did that just as she didwith Hannigan in Annie. John has seenher do several productions of Annie. He never did it with her. He once saw herdo it at the MUNY. “That’s a whole other story.” 
John has only metJerry Herman twice. John almost played Horace opposite Carol in the 1994 tourand revival. At the last minute, Jay Garner, who had played the role decidedthat he wanted to do it. John went over to Jerry’s house in Los Angeles to singfor him. John had laryngitis. Jerry was very understanding. He listened to Johncrack and warble and all that. He said to John, “I know you can sing. Don’tworry about it.” Then they went and had a nice lunch with Carol and Charles atthe Beverly Hills Hotel. John was shocked that Carol had a cheeseburger! He hadheard the stories about her food allergies. After lunch they parted and henever saw them again except when he saw her in the revival.The first time Johnheard the score to Dolly, he was in college. It knocked his socks off. It was soinfectious that he couldn’t wait to get to New York on his spring trip and seeit which he did. Hello, Dolly is avery clever number because it is definitely written as a showstopper; it is aneleven o’clock number. It is so joyful! Here is this waiting staff greetingthis woman as if she was their queen. There is something about that adorationaspect that is totally infectious.  |
| Max Showalter (pictured) replaced David Burns as Horace on Broadway |
John feels that therole of Horace Vandergelder is pretty much indestructible. The actor who playsthe part, just as those actresses playing Dolly, really bring their ownpersonality to the proceedings. The character is a balloon. You puncture it andair comes out of it. Out of that emerges this loving man who says,” I need you.Let’s get together. ”When closing nightcame, they were sad, Madeline, John, and his wife went out. They all took thecar to the airport together. Although they stayed in touch, they never saw eachother again. That was in August 1992. Madeline died December 3rd,1999.  |
| John in M*A*S*H |
John has anincredible television career. He does the same kind of homework on a characterfor both stage and television. Unless you are on a series, he says it is harderto do on television. So often they write for “professions” instead ofcharacter. You have to decide ahead of time what you are going to try to do.You don’t have a lot of time with television to prepare or you can make thechoice to do absolutely no preparation at all and just be spontaneous in themoment. If John could play any part with no restrictions, he wouldplay Barnaby. He loves Barnaby. He played Cornelius in college in
The Matchmaker. It was wonderful. Johnwent to Denison University. A lot of talent came from there, Steve Carell, HalHolbrook and Jennifer Garner, entertainer John Davidson, but when John wasthere, they also had a summer theater.
It was the first tent theater in Ohio.John knew that he wanted to be an actor since he was five and his parents tookhim to see
Oklahoma! at the St. JamesTheater on Broadway.
That solidified it.He knew he wanted to be an actor…or a cowboy! Even though he has never played that theater, he hopes tobefore it’s all over, perhaps as Horace in the next revival of
Dolly! Starring in Hello, Dolly! for Conrad John Schuck meant thathe was appearing in an American classic. He just loved that. His whole impetusas an actor was the American musical theater. When one gets to appear in a showthat is part of that legacy, which
Dollyis, it’s a thrill. It makes you feel like you are part of that. We’re past allthat now. There will never be another
Hello,Dolly! It’s nice to know that for afew weeks, he was able to put his stamp on it. It’s a great honor.
T
hank you Conrad John Schuck for the gifts you have given to the world and continue to give!With grateful XOXOXs, 
Check out my site celebrating my forthcoming book on Hello, Dolly!I want this to be a definitive account of Hello, Dolly! If any of you reading this have appeared in any production of Dolly, I'm interested in speaking with you!Do you have any pics? If you have anything to add or share, please contact me at Richard@RichardSkipper.com.NO COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT INTENDED. FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY!Please do what YOU can to be more aware that words and actions DO HURT...but they can also heal and help! My next blog will be...my interview with Judith Binus (Assistant Stage Manager, Carol Channing/Eddie Bracken Tour and Revival 1977)
Thank you, to all the mentioned in this blog!
Here's to an INCREDIBLE tomorrow for ALL...with NO challenges!Please contribute to the DR. CAROL CHANNING and HARRY KULLIJIAN FOUNDATION FOR THE ARTS
Sign The Petition!The Autumn Season isUpon Us! THIS is the show to Catch!I'm celebratingPamela Luss on Saturday,October 20th, 2012 at 7:00 pm Pamela with Houston Person at TheMetropolitan Room in NYCJust The Two Of Us and FriendsHope you can makeit. It’s going to be a party! Reserve today ifthat date is available! Call me if any questions!Richard Skipper845-365-0720Check out the clip below of Pamela performing on The Jerry LewisTelethon:
http://youtu.be/JmUgcuT_WM8And a review from her last timearound: http://nitelifeexchange.com/review/cabaret-reviews-mainmenu-27/2007-luss-is-luscious-at-metropolitan-room.html
TILL TOMORROW...HERE'S TO AN ARTS FILLED DAYRichard Skipper, Richard@RichardSkipper.com
This Blog is dedicated to ALL THE DOLLYS and ANYONE who has EVER had a connection with ANY of them on ANY Level!
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